Homer's works were in some ways the closest thing the Greeks had to a Bible. If one wanted authoritative teaching about the gods and about their dealings with mankind, one turned to Homer. Passages culled from the Iliad and the Odyssey served as "proof texts" for any point one might try to make. Likewise, Homer's writings were also the starting point for later "inspired" writers--the poets and playwrights of ancient Greece. But Homer's works are a very strange sort of Bible, and it's not always easy to say exactly what his religious views were.Please read the Iliad study questions on the syllabus, and then as much of you can of Books I-VI. Cite here a line or incident that shows how the Iliad is like a Bible or how it makes a very strange "Bible."
Brek-ek-ek-ek-coax-coax.
Ruth Wilson
ReplyDeleteGranted, this isnt a specific incident, but laced throughout the entire poem the gods interact with their human favorites, just as the God of Abraham and Isaac did with... well, Abraham and Isaac. These incidences would be lessons about how to deal with emotions, like anger when Hera sent Athena to stop Akhilleus and Agamemnon from killing echother. I'm sure many a mother has said something to fighting siblings that references this.
Laura Mccowan
ReplyDeleteThe Iliad is a lot like the bible, because God choose favorites, like Thetis and Achilles. Even if they are mother and son. A better way the Iliad is like the bible is don’t anger the god or the gods. At the beginning Apollo becomes angry and decimates the Greek army, because Agamemmnon refuses to give a priestess back. In the bible God killed off everyone but Noah’s family, in a great flood. On the flip side if you pleased the gods, such as Thetis and her son Achilles, they made try to sway the other gods to help you, or stop you from doing something stupid, or guide you. I’m sure ancient people used the Iliad to judge how their war time actions might affect the gods view on them, because losing favor with the gods was not a good thing. The key point is show great respect for the gods, or they can and will turn on you.
Sam Merkel
ReplyDeleteThere are some points in the Iliad that you can relate back to the bible. One that stood out to me was when Achilles spoke to the men while they were being attacked by the arrows of the gods. Achilles goes on to say "Son of Atreus, now we are beaten back, I fear, the long campaign is lost. So home we sail... if we can escape our death if war and plague are joining forces now to crush the Argives." The part of the Iliad reminded me of the ten plagues that were apon Pharoah in the Exodos from Egypt. So there are certain areas in the Iliad where it does seem to relate back the bible.
kirsten saunders
ReplyDeleteIt is fear of the unknown and the power of a particular god which spurns religious fervor, the Illiad is no exception. While my knowledge of the Bible is limited at best, the Illiad presents several instances/stories where an angry god (i.e. Apollo) punishes individual effontery. A spurned priest, a towering god, a fear inspired people; elements to a successful religion. If it isn't fear that inspires people to please the god(s), then it it is the constant of a welcoming place after life that proves to be a catalyst in religions. The Bible paves the road for both issues: fear and after life appeasement. For example, Apollo, angry at Agamemnon,initiates mass destruction on the Greek army as a result of individual arrogance. This is a lesson that will be long to forget. Both the Bible and the Illiad denote divine intervention and the mediation of human emotion and consequence. For example, in the heated exchange with Agamemnon and Achilles, Athena mediates with Achilles'rage. She states, that a man's heart may break with fury, but in the end such restrictions on compulsion would be rewarded in the end. With respect and fear for the gods, certain human emotions such as rage remain checked.
Peter Ryman
ReplyDeleteI noticed throughout the Illiad, Zeus is referred to as the "father." There are many incidents of mortals praying to the gods. And basically, the interactions between the gods and the mortals really show parallels to the Christian God and his relationship to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the people of Israel in the OT.
In reference to Laura's example of how you shouldn't anger the gods, I would say that's some what true. However, God's judgement against the peoples of the earth during the time of Noah was just and righteous, because the people were clearly acting wickedly, corruptly, and violently. I don't know if you'd classify Apollo's sudden burst of human like anger against the entire Greek army as just or righteous. God seemed to destroy those who defied him, not those who were innocent. And more over, God of the Bible isn't like those gods who take revenge without a chance for redemption, because God "desires mercy, not sacrifice." Any way though, I see the general point that was trying to be made :).
The Iliad makes a strange "Bible" because of the way it portrays the gods. Gods are by name considered to be greater than man, although in The Iliad, Homer often gives them very human like characteristics. The gods often fight with eachother, for example Zeus and Hera. Zeus' support of the Trojans angered Hera were as in a more traditional "Bible" the gods do no wrong it is the mortals that do
ReplyDeletekelsey leddy
I dont know that much about the bible but in the illiad they talk about the gods destroying the walls that the greeks had built by their ships for defence, showing how they can control the weather and do whatever they want which is somewhat like the big flood god had that washed away everything the humans had done, luckily some dude had a sweet paddle boat that held a lot of animals and us....
ReplyDeleteAnnie Merkel
ReplyDeleteAs I was reading "The Iliad," it seems very obvious that Zeus is a god. However, it seems like he is THE god. Homer worships Zeus just like christians worship god. On page 83 Homer writes, "Zeus above all, whose wisdom rules the world." In general, "The Iliad" is similar to the bible in the fact that there is definately a god, but in Homer that god is Zeus, whereas in the bible it is god.
In a way the Iliad is very similar to the Bible in that the gods have their presence felt throughout the battles and struggles of mortals. The greek gods are constantly taking sides and throwing their influence towards the people who they are siding with. Due to this constant interference from the Gods, the greek people have to be wary of the things they do in order to not anger them. This fear of the ones they worship will either help the mortal men live more virtuously or just in fear. If the greeks live in accordance with their gods they can then ask for favors. One of these favors is seen at the beginning of the book when Apollo killed all of the greek men because of Chryses prayers.
ReplyDeleteI would say that Iliad seems like it is the Bible because it has gods and goddesses littered throughout the whole book. Zeus is considered the greatest God from what I can tell, however, he does have a father according to Homer.
ReplyDeleteThis book is also a very different bible because it has many different gods. In the Christian Bible there is Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, but in the Iliad, there are many different gods so it seems different because everyone is worshipping different gods.
Terry Kenny
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, the illiad is definitely a strange "bible." The so called "gods" are portrayed as duplicitous, back-stabbing scoundrals who go on feasts that last for weeks on end. And when Hera disagrees with Zeus he threatens to give her a good beating. Hephaestus gets upset because if his mother is fighting with Zeus the partying will be interrupted. Are these the type of "gods" someone would want to worship? Or was it Homer's intent to humanize these "gods" because if they are as fallible as man, it lessens the fear of the unknown.
Did anyone else notice that when Thetis knelt at the feet of Zeus she grabbed his knee with one hand and his chin with the other. Was Zeus really short or did Thetis have really long arms?
Brian Johnson
ReplyDeleteThe Iliad makes a very strange Bible because of the way it portrays women. They are treated as the slaves of men. There are numerous examples of women being treated poorly: Chryseis, Clytemnestra, etc..
Why anyone would consider that an ideal or right attitude to have towards women is beyond me. That is certainly not something which should be taught or passed on.
I think the very beginning of the story is a good example of how the Greeks could use the story as a sort of bible. It starts with a priest of Apollo bringing a request to Agamemnon. When Agamemnon refuses him and dishonors Apollo, the god brings a plague to Agamemnon's army as payback. But it also showed what would happen if they stayed on the gods' good side. When Achilles was betrayed by Agamemnon he prayed to his mother to help him pay Agamemnon back. His mother spoke to Zeus and convinced him to help Achilles. So this story shows that if you honor the gods good things will happen, and if you don't bad things will happen.
ReplyDeleteJohn Rawerts
The Iliad is a strange sort of "Bible" because of the portrayed relationship between the divine and the mortal and their subsequent interactions with each other. For instance, in both the Iliad and the Bible, each side--gods and humans--is described as distinct entities, with complete rational thoughts and opinions. Plus, both the gods and humans interact with each other, expressing their views and opinions to the other expecting a response. In the Iliad, we see this when Athena comes and intervenes in the argument between Achilles and Agamemnon. I'm sure we can all find an instance in the Bible where God intervenes with humans for a specific purpose.
ReplyDeleteThe important thing about each book--the Iliad and the Bible--is their description of how the gods and humans react to each others requests. The Bible is used by people today as a model for how they should live their lives and how to properly interact with God. I think that is very close to the purpose of the Iliad to the people it was written for, in the time that it was written. The Iliad descibes how the gods will interact with the Greeks. Based on what the Greeks did in regards to those interacts and what the gods thought of the Greek's reactions, the Iliad paints a pretty good picture as to how a typical Greek should not only interact with the gods but what to expect back from them.
Doran Stucky
Well as everyone's already said there's the obvious connections of god's being involved in both books, but god's aside, religion aside, both works are just a history. A chronicling of a peoples history and how they view their creation. Both could be compared to the Poetic and Prose Edda's of the Norse or the Rig Veda of the Indians. Every people has their own creation stories, and what may seem like fiction to one culture is history to the other. When reading something of this nature I try to look at it from a non-subjective viewpoint the first time I read it to truly evaluate it. It is best to view it, and judge the people, through the lens of the time it was created
ReplyDeleteDo as much as you can to put yourself in the society it portrays. Consider their laws to be your laws. Their customs, yours. Only then can you actually judge the actions of someone in that time.
-Nik Aberle
David Ellsworth
ReplyDeleteThe Iliad liek the bible shows relationships between people, how they relate to the divine, and how the divine in turn relates to them. How they differ from one another is in the manner of that relationship. Where in the bible it shows how infallible God is, in the Iliad it shows the Gods in all their faults as well as their heavenly splendor. One such example is after Paris and Menelaus duel over Helen when the Gods sit in council. "They lifted golden beakers, pledging each other warmly, gazing down on Troy...But abruptly Zeus was set on infuriating Hera, courting her fire with cunning mocking taunts:" I find this passage significant because Zeus is frequently complaining about Hera's constant nagging, but here he is taunting her and trying to get a rise out of her on purpose. A person can quite easily see this relationship reflected in a pair of human spouses. This gave the Greek Gods more depth and made it easier for people to participate in a relationship with the divine because of behaviors and modivations they could relate to such as these.
In the first six books of the iliad there are many references to the gods, and the gods play a direct role in giving the advantage to one side or the other. The Athena is even responsible for keeping the war going after the duel between Paris in Menelaus. I feel the best example of the Iliad as a parallel to the bible is in book 1 because it discribes a prayer resulting in a plague befalling the enemy. Just as Moses recieved a plague from god to help his people escape the Egyptians.
ReplyDeleteZach Anderson
the iliad can be viewed as a bible but it is strange indeed. God of the christian bible conducts himself very differnetly from the gods in th iliad. these gods seem very human like with their emotions, taking sides and letting anger move them very easily. in book one it reads "his prayer went up and Phoebus Apollo heard him. Down he strode from Olympus' peaks, storming at heart with his bow and hooded quiver slung across his shoulders. the arrows clanged at his back as the god quaked with rage."
ReplyDeleteApollo so easily medles in human affairs. that is stange, that so easily the gods will interfear.
-allison rademacher
The Iliad’s view of how the gods interact in the life of people is different in many ways from how Yahweh interacts in the OT. Joshua is helped in the battlefield many times, but there are instances in the bible as well where most people wouldn’t think God would act like it is written. Looking at Genesis and the story of Jacob’s struggle with the Angel, we come to a very strange verse. God seems to wrestle with his own creation and can’t prevail. When He see’s He isn’t making any ground he throws a cheap shot at Jacob’s hip. Yahweh is emotional as the gods in the Iliad, but He is not impulsive. There are instances when these Greek gods portray poor judgment and radical behavior. But there are parts that suggest we can ask and we shall receive. When Achilles was betrayed by Agamemnon he prayed to his mother to help him get back at him. Prayer is a constant road across the wilderness (Paul Simon) and to have a book of guidance that has prayer is a tremendous help to a people.
ReplyDelete-Matt Peterson
There are many examples which you could talk about in reference to this quesiton, however I think the reason I find it to be an especially *odd* sort of bible has to do with the fervor the Greeks are in concerning war. One line of Hectors which portrays this is when he is talking to his wife and son. He says "May he bring back the blood-stained spoils of him whom he has laid low, and let his mother's heart be glad." I have never met a mother who has this mentality. And I don't know of any instances in the bible which would portray God as thinking this way.
ReplyDeleteI think that the Illiad could serve as a very good bible. They even have plagues because a priest prayed to apollo so he sent locusts and rained down his arrows on his army because he kidnapped the priests wife.
ReplyDeleteJon Evenson