Please read as much as you can of Books VII-XVII. If you like, you may skim over the descriptions of the actual fighting. These scenes are exciting (and important), but it's not essential for you to try to follow the ebb and flow of the battles: I'll summarize that for you in class.Please read especially closely Books 9,14,15, and 16. Choose from these books a "key line," one line that seems to you to summarize particularly well one of Homer's insights into the human condition.
As you search for your key line, consider especially the attempts to mend the relationship between Agamemnon and Achilles, the very odd scene between Zeus and Hera, and Zeus' lament about fate.
Annie Merkel
ReplyDeleteI found it difficult to determine how Homer saw the human condition. I thought it almost seemed like he treats humans like the toys of the gods. The humans are the ones that have to fight in the name of one of the gods. On page 214 it states, "Both men bent on combat, on they fought like wind." My understanding of the human condition is that they are always at war, fighting for the gods.
Sam Merkel
ReplyDeleteFor me I thought that Homer shows how people put so much faith into the people above them. Sort of like a ranking structure for the people to follow. As long as the person above them seems to know what they are doing and keep the people safe and happy they still stand behind them. An example of that for me was on page 253. "Atrides, lead the way you are the greatest king spread out a feast for all your senior chiefs. That is your duty, a service that becomes you. Grand hospitality is yours, you rule so many men. Come, gather us all and we will heed that man who gives the best advice." It seems that everyone answers to the person above them. Sort of like the military structure today. It seems that when trouble arises they look to the person who is higher up than themselves for the answers.
Laura McCowan
ReplyDeleteI think Homer wants to point out how people can't ever let go of feelings of anger. Achilles and Agamemnon can not get along no matter what. When Agamemnon was willing to make peace with Achilles, Achilles more or less says he's wasting his time. Odyessus tells Agamemnon Achilles' answer " That man has no intention of quenching his rage."(pg 274). It shows, only Achilles actually expresses his view, that people will hold on to anger until the end. At least that's what I got out of chapter nine.
i picked a line from the part where ajax first duels with hector, they decide to take a break and as the line goes "come, let us give each other gifts, unforgettable gifts, so any man may say, trojan soldier or argive, first they fought with heart-devouring hatred, then they parted, bound by pacts of friendship"
ReplyDeletethink homer might be pointing at mankinds ability to hate yet also show kindness to an enemy or our ability respect those who we fight, kind of like soldiers meeting another one from wwII or something like on christmas day, the day before they shot each other, but take a break, then try to kill each other the next day...
Terry Kenny
ReplyDeleteWhen Odysseus tries to persuade Achilles to forgive Agameemnon he tells Achilles to let go of his pride because,"friendship is better." Was Achilles going to do this? No way. He considered what Agamemnon had done to be unforgivable. Even if it meant the total destruction of the Acheans, his brothers-in-arms, he would not forgive. Homer seems to be speaking about the stubborness of the human heart when it has been offended. Art has said in the past that the only way to correct certain things about our nature is through a true,"heart change." Look at the society of today. Politicians wage war with each other over statements that they consider to be insulting. Radio talk show hosts are excoriated by those who view what they say as too "polarizing." When one child throws sand into the face of another child the first instinct is to get the thrower of the sand back. It boils down to the inability to forgive. Did Homer see that this inability to forgive was leading to destruction? To me it appears he did. Then again, I could just be projecting my own opinions into the writings of Homer. Is changing of the heart that difficult to attain?
Brian Johnson
ReplyDeleteThe line I chose was "Well let him bed her now-enjoy her to the hilt!"
I chose that line because I think it is a perfect example of how anger can twist people's perspective.
Achilles refuses to forgive Agamemnon for what he percieved as a slap in the face. Even if Agamemnon was willing to give the girl back to Achilles he would not accept it.
He has reached the point where the original offense no longer matters to him, and he is only interested in spiting Agamemnon.
Even when the incident is minor and the time since it occured was long ago, people often will simply refuse to let it go. They both refuse to let go of their anger and as a result it makes the situation even worse.
In Book 16: "You must not, lost in the flush and fire of triumph, slaughtering Trojans outright, drive your troops to Troy--what if one of the gods who never die comes down from Olympus heights to intervene in battle? The deadly Archer loves his Trojans dearly."
ReplyDeleteIn this scene, Achilles is directing Patroclus right before they go off for battle. Achilles is warning Patroclus of the danger of human nature: greed or blood-lust. Achilles is telling Patroclus that even if they win the battle, he must be in control of his emotions--something that obviously means that humans have problems doing. And isn't he right?
Homer is telling us that humans are rash and naive toward their emotions. They don't think about the consequences that could come about from their actions; actions which often come about far too quickly. And it is this same uncontrollable nature that leads us into trouble with the gods.
Doran Stucky
I chose to focus on Homer's insight on pride in the human condition. Pride and patriotism. Hector exudes pride. Pride for himself and for his homeland. He is a strong warrior for Troy, but this does not come without its drawbacks.
ReplyDeleteIt was described of Hector in Book 15: "...thundering in his pride--his head flung back, his main streaming over his shoulders...so Hector hurtled on..."
He did not give up. Not even when merely lines earlier had been sure he was done for "I thought I'd breathed my last." Pride is an important element of the human condition. In many cases it is the downfall of humans but in others it it was propels them forward.
Kelsey Leddy
I chose a line from book 12. "So in the years to come Poseidon and god Apollo would set all things to rights once more."
ReplyDeleteAs others have said Homer's insight into the human condition is that it's up to the gods to correct every wrong and then without the gods man would be nothing. Men can't make their own decisions, and when they do the gods have to help them out and reverse damage they may have caused. Homer seems to make man out to be a helpless, almost lost cause simply living in the world of the gods.
"Old man, you expose my folly justly.
ReplyDeleteI was deluded. I don't deny that.
The man whom Zeus loves in his heart is worth whole armies."
Agamemnon speaking to Nestor acknowledging his mistake in stealing the girl from Achilles, and causing such an important soldier to leave the battlefield. The interesting part about this is how it shows how when men act on emotion, and allow jealousy to take over it will lead to failure. Agamemnon realizes his mistake, and purposes many gifts to win Achilles back. I think it is also important to note that some of the references to Achilles are very similar to the ones in the Bible about King David, another great warrior, favored by God.
Zach Anderson
I think that Homers insight into the human condition deals with the people obeying the person, persons, or even gods that are above them. The people are put into ranks that make them give up what they have to the higher ups the line that best describes that is in the 14th book where Agamemnon gets the soldiers ready to fight again after they have been wounded and the book says, "Atreus' son Agamemnon ranged the ranks, made them exchange armor. The best men donned the best, the worst the worst..."
ReplyDeleteThey all obey the commands of the person that is higher than them and the highest of the mortals are basically puppets of the gods, with the gods pulling on the strings making them do what the gods demand.
Erik Guthmiller
"...When the ships are burning, it will be a harder matter to save them..." These are words I unintentionally live by. I'm sure that 99.99% of my class mates do , too! How often does one wait and wait until the last seconed that paper is due to turn it in. How many have pulled all nighters to study for a test that half an hour a day would have been beter spent on studying than checking out the latest on youtube... and yes, I'm posting this at one in the morning. Have I learned better yet? You bet yer britches I haven't!
ReplyDeleteRuth Wilson
David Ellsworth
ReplyDeleteIn book 9 page 265 Achilles has an interesting line after he refused Agamemnon's apology offering. "...two fates bear me on to the day of death. If I hold out here and I lay siege to Troy, my journey home is gone, but my glory never dies. If I voyage back to the fatherland I love, my pride, my glory dies...true, but the life that's left me will be long," Yes Achilles was still mad at Agamemnon and did not want to fight for the enrichment and glory of a man that betrayed him, but perhaps that was not the only reason. The way this prophesy of his death is presented it sounds like it is very much dominating his thoughts. As generous as Agamemnon's offer is it is meaningless to him, he knows that if he accepts it and fights he will die, perhaps this is the true reason for his refusal here. He has to choose if he wants eternal glory or a long fruitful life.
I feel Homer's portrail of human emotion here is very accurate for this very reason.
I think the lines "But now that he's torn my honor from my hand, robbed me, lied to me--don't let him try me now. I know him too well--he'll never win me over!" show a bit of the human condition according to Homer. He is showing how much damage can be done when you act out in your anger. Agamemnon, while he was angry, wronged Achilles and took his woman. Later on he realized that he had done a stupid thing and tried to win Achilles' friendship back. But it was too late. The damage had already been done. When he tried to offer Achilles gifts and honor in exchange for his help Achilles threw it back in his face and refused to have anything more to do with him. This shows how much can go wrong if you do not control your anger.
ReplyDeleteJohn Rawerts
Peter Ryman
ReplyDeleteI suppose this is what I get for posting an hour before class, but my answer is a conglomeration of a few of the above posts. Yes, I would agree that Homer seems to depict humans as "iron-hearted", "war-minded", and god-like toys.
I believe it was Achilles and Hector who were described as having hearts of iron.
All of the people are war-minded, meaning they would do battling just like we would do dodge ball: "We like to!" They throw spears at each other w/ the mind set that we throw dodge balls at each other: "I just want to hit the other guy as hard as I can and get him out! No offense or anything, it's just fun though!"
Lastly, Homer makes the humans out to be mere toys or puppets used for the gods pleasure. Nik put it well when he said, "Homer seems to make man out to be a helpless, almost lost cause simply living in the world of the gods."
Honestly, in the Illiad the gods are mere super-human beings. If they didn't have any super powers or super natural abilities, you couldn't tell the difference between mortals and immortals in regards to moral character or behavior. They all act like children!! Children who haven't learned what's right, who are always bent on evil, satisfying the desires of their corrupted nature, who haven't seen the truth, or come to know it (I wonder if Homer made up the gods according to the pattern he saw in the people around him; the same character and sense of morality). "One" example shows this depraved and corrupted condition. I forget who it was that were fighting, but one of the men says to both of the fighters as they became tired, "Don't you understand!? Zeus loves you both!" And yet Zeus and the gods want you to fight to your death after you catch your breath. In the story they both are depraved, humans and gods alike.
I think that Homer doesn't think too highly of humans. It seems to me that he continually shows how humans get themselves into quarrels with each other and the Gods have to help them out of the situation. He seems to make all humans have rage against one another. The problems between Achilles and Agememnon is a very good example of this. I think that Homer is trying to show how the Gods are more important than humans by having the Gods solve all the problems of the humans.
ReplyDeleteI thought that one of the key lines was when Zeus forgave Hera for putting him to sleep and understood that he should not interfere with the outcome of the war because fate had already decided the outcome. He still has some action in the war but he does not do anything that will change the outcome of the war. Zues then says that when Hector kills Patroclus Hector will die as well
ReplyDeleteJon Evenson
In book 9 Homer really shows Agamemnon's true feelings of desperation as he tries to get Achilles back on his side for the battle with the Trojans. Even though it goes against his pride Agamemnon is willing to give in to Achilles and offer him many rewards for fighting alongside him. This is seen so much with humans because when we need something very badly we will go at great lengths to obtain it.
ReplyDeleteIn book 9 of the Iliad Agamemnon says, "But sense i was blinded, lost in my own inhuman rage, now, at last, I am bent on setting things to rights: I'll give a priceless ransome paid for friendship."
ReplyDeleteThis I feel Homer's message was how when anger and emotions are so high in a person, their logical thinking can be clouded. He may hate Achilles as a person, but as a soldier he needs him. When Agamemnon was so enriched with anger he created even more hatred between Achilles and him, now that he sat back and began to logically think again he knew he had some bridges that needed mended.
Yvette Waters
Kirsten Saunders
ReplyDeleteIn Book XVII, Homer comments, "Once harm has been done even a fool understands it." This is a critical point in defining the human condition. This denotes a certain remorse on account of the fighting between man as well as god and man. Furthermore, this is a central point in the Iliad, because it helps illustrate the consequences of human emotion as well as divine intervention. It is a crucial lesson to be learned. The relationship between human emotion and consequence is cyclical and such results present themselves in obvious ways.
For this question I thought especially fitting the line "Now so long as the day waxed and it was still morning their weapons beat against one another, and the people fell, but when the sun had reached mid-heaven, the sire of all balanced his golden scales, and put two fates of death within them, one for the Trojans and the other for the Achaeans."
ReplyDeleteTo me, this represents the fickle nature of the Gods. This is the way Zues, the "Father of the Gods" decides a victor for the day.
One of the main concepts I find within Homers works is human honor. The Greeks hold this as important above all things and it shines out in all the books of the Iliad. He seems to be saying that with the Gods changing sides constantly, the best victory you can claim is the honor of your fellow men. This is not to say that pleasing the Gods is not important -- this is also very important -- but pleasing the peoples around you should sometimes be put above all else (thinking of the example of Alexandrus when he was whisked away by Venus)
"One in the same lot for the man who hangs back and the man who battles hard. The same honor waits the coward and the brave."
ReplyDeleteAchilles says this to Odysseus after Odysseus asks him to end his anger and come back and fight. He tells Achilles he will be thought of as a god if he would kill Hector. He also asks him if he'd do it just for the united forces.
Achilles line is a great thing to think of. It brings a question to purpose in life. Should we do what's right, because it's right or will we just die and the same fate awaits everyone. This is a godless thought. If there is no god then it really doesn't pay to be good for goodness' sake. There's a problem here if that becomes a universal mindset.
-Matt Peterson