Please read the following passages from Thucydides history:III: 36-50 The Mytilene debate
III: 69-85 The revolution in Corcyra
IV: 42-48 Athenian successes/End of the revolution in Corcyra
V: 13-24 Peace of Nicias
V: 84-116 Melian Dialogue
VI: 89-93 Alcibiades justifies himself
VII: 76-87 Defeat of Nicias
Any particularly tragic elements here? Any elements of real tragedy? Are the themes/conflicts here comparable to the themes/conflicts in Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides? Anything that particularly warrants Thucydides' claim that he is writing a work for all time?
Peter Ryman
ReplyDeleteThe Mytilene debate--yes, some good tragic elements here. The debate is whether to kill or spare the Mytilenians; Diototus works to provoke sympathy in the reader. Satisfactory outcome; guilty punished, innocent spared n nickotime.
The Revolution in Corcyra--yes, tragic elements; breakdown of law and order, violence, wickedness, all because of love for power operating through greed and personal ambition. Human Nature: being what it is.
Athenian successes/End of revolution--...yes. How horrible. If this really did happen, it certainly is a grievous tragedy indeed. How cruel and heartless.
The Melian Dialogue--another real tragedy. More selfish ambition and vain love of power that drives the Athenians to put all the men of Melos to death and sell the women and children in to slavery.
Defeat of Nicias--tragedy. Nicias was the least deserved to die in such a miserable way, and the Athenian prisoners were badly treated and suffered everything that one could imagine might be suffered in imprisonment, and they were sold as slaves.
Although there are some tragic elements within Thucydides, I don't think they are the same caliber as the plays of Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides. These plays are much more tragic because they have characters that we can really relate with. Thucydides is lacking really influential characters to create tragic elements with.
ReplyDeleteHowever, there are a few tragic elements within Thucydides. One example of this is in The Melian Dialogue of Book 5. In this section Thucydides describes the island of Melos, which stood up against Athenian destruction. Melos was a neutral island and Athens wanted them under their control. When they resisted this Athens attacked them and eventually destroyed them. After defeating the Melians, Athens killed all their military age men, and sold the children and women as slaves.
Now this is a very tragic event, but what makes it lack compared to our tragic playwrites is the fact that there is no memorable character to relate with.
I read they mtilenian debate and I do believe you see tragic elements in this part of the book. You have cleon whos is important in Athens,but has a very violent character say some general themes that like in a play the audience would be affected by.
ReplyDelete"you are simply victims of your own pleasure in listening, and are more like an audience sitting at the feet of a professional lecturer thana parliament discussing matters of state"
-one of Athens great traits is that they do value freedom and government, but sometimes they can be persuaded by by one powerful man who might not be making the right decision, somewhat like odysseus and neopotolmus,
-one of the worst parts of athens character, like anyone, is in times of stress and hardship you can forget your ethics and stop showing character, this happens a lot in tragedies when people are down. And like we sad in class Athens formed the delian league to help protect greece from persia and their own freedom. But here this great champion of freedom is fighting with itself to determine if they should destroy a city and its people for the simple fact they they dont want to be under Athens rule
Kirsten Saunders
ReplyDeleteIf you consider the breakdown of law and order, family structure, morality, and character, tragic, then yes these histories are tragic. While I do agree that several characters lack an element of relatability, I believe that this history is no less tragic than the tragedies by Sophocles, Euripides, and Aeschylus. For example, in book III, 81, Thucydides, noted, "There was death in every shape in form. And, as usually happens in such situtions... There were fathers who killed their sons; men were dragged from temples and butchered..." What is more tragic than a parent killing their child? Additionally, in the same passage Thucydides described the massacre by the Corcyraens of the Messenians. Those put on trial were executed and witnessing the executions those awaiting trial committed suicide. This passage is particularly brutal and undeniably has elements of tragedy. Perhaps what is even more tragic is the utmost deterioration of the Greek character. Cleon defends this in his speech, defending anger and lust as a true test of character and respect. Like Keith said, the supposed leaders of Greek greatness and protection turned to the epitome of tyranny and violence.
Annie Merkel
ReplyDeleteI would have to say that there are tragic elements throughout Thucydides. As with most wars, there are always sad stories that return home. Therefore, all of the sad, devastating stories in Thucydides would qualify as being tragic.
As far as being comparable to Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides, I would disagree. Thucydides deals with the Peloponnesion War, whereas the other three playwrights focus on certain people - not so much the war. Overall, Thucydides has tragedy on a broader level than the other playwrights.
Brian Johnson
ReplyDeleteI think the Melian Dialogue is a good example of a tragedy.
The Athenians thought of themselves as the champions of democracy and freedom but in the Melian Dialouge they reveal their tyrannical and power hungry motives.
They insist that the strongest nation should be allowed to do whatever it wants without regards to basic rules of warfare or civilization. So it turns out they are actually an enemy of freedom.
In that way it is very similar to Oedipus Rex, in which he is searching for the problem but he is it.
Laura McCowan
ReplyDeleteAny story about war is a tragedy. Thucydides is no different. But as stated above he's is not as tragic as the Greek Plays we read.
The most tragic part of the reading was the Mytilene debate. It starts out as a victory, then a bad choice comes. This choice later led to a large debate. In the end the choice is reversed, just like a god sent to the people who were saved.
Thucydides does not reach such levels of tragedy as the playwrights do, but he shines through a notable handicap. When reading about war the reader goes into it expecting some terrible things to happen. The playwrights set up the people so that we wouldn’t think such tragedy would fall. As a fall of people in a whole, the Melian Dialogue is particularly tragic. The Athenians believe that everyone should be democratic. They force it upon then with harsh penalties, deluding far away from what democracy is suppose to be about.
ReplyDeleteMatthew Peterson
" It is probable that in early times the penalties for the greatest offences were less severe, and that, as these were disregarded, the penalty of death has been by degrees in most cases arrived at, which is itself disregarded in like manner."
ReplyDeleteThis was a very interesting statement from the Mytilene debate, and I think its interesting that this type of thing is still debated to this very day. This speaks to the fact that Thucydides is writing to future people, and his sense of human nature. He understands that the debate in Athens will take place in more wars, and obviously we have seen genocide throughout the ages.
Zach Anderson
Sam Merkel
ReplyDeleteI think that there are a few incidents that show tragedy. One that stood out for me was when Melos was a neutral island and Athens wanted them under their control. But when they did not agree with them, Athens then attacked them and destroyed them. After defeating the Melians I thought that it was too much when Athens killed all their men that were in the military. Another tragic thing from that is when they sold the children and women as slaves too.
There are definitely some elements of real tragedy here. There revolution in Corcyra is an interesting example. This is where Peithias condemned five men and those five men turned around and slaughtered everyone in the Council and Peithias (so around 60 people). The main problem with this form of tragedy, as I believe some have pointed out, is that you never really become attached to these characters like you would in a play of Sophocles or Euripides.
ReplyDeleteI think everything about the way Thucydides writes shows that he is trying to keep a good record of this war for the future generations. He is trying to jump all over the Greek states to give a good impression of everything going on. I am sure he didn't get everything, but the amount to which he did record is very impressive.
I think there are some elements of tragedy here. First of all in the Mytilene debate the fact that Athens would even consider killing an entire city just because they didn't promise to fight a war that wasn't there own is very tragic, and then that they nearly followed through with it makes it even worse. I think this is somewhat comparable to the themes of the three playwrights. Some of there stories show how a society's morality has decayed and what occurs because of this. The story of the Mytiline debate shows just how far morality in Athens had fallen.
ReplyDeleteThere are also some elements of tragedy in the story of Nicias. He was a great Athenian leader and always tried to do what was best. Thucydides says in book VII that "his whole life had been devoted to the study and practice of virtue." But this did not help him in the end, and he was wrongly put to death after his capture. He had made an agreement with the Spartans that he and his men would be spared, but the Syracusans did not trust him to keep to his word and persuaded their allies to put him to death. This is a tragic element of a noble person struggling against terrible events and eventually dying because of it.
As for Thucydides writing for all ages I believe this is true. It is apparent that this was his intention. In one instance he explains why he uses the system of measuring time that he does. Instead of using the normal way of saying a certain time of someone's reign, he uses a set standard of summers and winters, and explains that he uses this because it is easier to keep track of and will be easier to make sense of later on. And I think his book is good to use for all time because it shows so many human errors and what they led to and also the horrors of war. This will help people see the mistakes of the past and hopefully lead them to avoid these mistakes and the terrible outcomes that come from them.
John Rawerts
I would have to say I agree with Payton. As I was reading The Melian Dialogue I found myself being very upset with Athens obviously, and being the Melians cheerleader every time they made a good point, jut to be shot down by bully Athens. Although I was wrapped up in this dialogue, I was unhappy because I knew what Athens was doing was wrong, not because I had been given any reason to sympathise for Melos other than that fact. Tragedy is effective when it has a face. Why do you think the commercials for impoverished children have kind faced old men lining up poor emaciated children? When you see a face or picture in your mind you feel as though you know it, and to know someone suffering a tragedy pulls at your heart strings more than hearing about an unfortunate man suffering a similar tragedy.
ReplyDeleteKelsey Leddy
I did not think that the tragedy found in Thucydides could compare equally with those of Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides; however, it was present. One thing that Thucydides does that can be comparable with Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides pieces of work is his choice in themes to talk about. They both include moral issues that the Athenian society, and the city-states around them, must deal with.
ReplyDeleteBased on the speeches that he tends to include, and how they relate to the events and stories around those speeches, I would say that Thucydides is writting a work for all time. Those speeches are often based off of philosophical and idealogical convictions that the speakers have; many these elements can relate to anyone, even in today's time.
Doran Stucky
I also agree that there are some tragidies but since thucydides just went through the main people and their stories real quick just so you could get the story. If he would have went into great detail and built up his characters a little more the peloponnesian war would have been just as good as the others it just would have had to been a million pages long to set up all the events that happened. I think that thucydides made a true history book not like the other authors who told about just one story in great detail. Thucydides told all the stories in order and got the details but didn't linger on which is why i think that he should be considered the first true historian, Heredotus just got the ball rolling for him.
ReplyDeletejon evenson
Terry Kenny
ReplyDeleteThere are many aspects of Thucydides' writing that can be viewed as having a direct correlation to the way the greek playwrights wrote. Thucydides' description of the civil wars in Corcyra is a guide book on how to avoid making choices that lead to more death and horror.
His writing about the debate between Cleon and Diodotus is brillant stuff. Its basically a debate about a democracy and its vices and virtues and how punishment should be meted out. So you could say that Thucydides was writing a play just without those pesky choruses.
"And this is the very worst thing- to pass measures and then not to abide by them".-Cleon
Was Cleon talking about politicians or just Jon Corzine and his seat belt?
David Ellsworth
ReplyDeleteThere are some great examples of tragedy in Thucydides if one looks for them. One that really stood out to me was in book III. There we are presented with an arguement that democracy is bad because the people are more apt to think with their hearts and rescind harsh judgments like the decision to kill the men of lesbos and sell the women and children into slavery. He argues that it is a mistake not to be harsh with those that disagree with them, all for the good of Athens. I find it tragic that a supposed enlightened population in Athens bought into this superior attitude and puffed themselves up with enough pride that they felt justified in taking away other city state's freedom.
The story during the Mytilene Debate definately had some tragic elements in it. The Athenians were displeased with the Mytileneans because they re-volted for no reason supposedly. This made Athens mad and they went and beat them in a war. After the war, they didn't know what to do with them, so they got in a council and decided to kill all of them. They send a ship out with the orders. The next day they have the debate and decide not to kill all of them and send out another ship. The second ship gets there just in time to save Mytilene. The tragedy here is that a war occurred, and Athens was going to kill everyone in Mytilene. Luckily for Mytilene though, the second ship is like the god that comes at the end of the play to make everything better.
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